So…if I try to pursue a life following all of those tenants I get what?
1. Poor and I work too hard for it.
2. Guilt for feeling joy.
3. I know little, but I know it well?
4. Poor because I give it all away.
5. Creationism with no testable facts.
6. Faith.
7. No politicians.
Ok, so 6 and 7 almost make it all worth it.
recap:
Poor, never truly happy, at best naive, no facts to rely on, have faith and no such thing as politicians. Dunno…sounds like a damn chimpanzee to me. :)
Look, Ghandi was a nice guy, no doubt about it. Was he wise enough to cheat death. I think not.
Here’s my interpretation of what is said here:
1. This does not say we should not have wealth, rather it says we should have worked for it. Applicable perhaps to (I hate to say this, but it’s a great example) to people like the Hilton daughters? They haven’t done anything, but live like queens.
2. Have pleasure, but understand how those pleasures may affect others. For example, it is one thing to drink alcohol, but it is entirely another to drive drunk and endanger others.
3. This is a hard one without knowing what Gandhi’s intention was. Apply what you have learned to better yourself, perhaps?
4. Be a fair merchant, if you are one. Don’t charge obscene prices for goods. Also, consider how these goods came into being; if they were made by workers in horrific conditions being paid almost nothing, one would be violating this.
5. I don’t think this is a creation/evolution statement. Rather, I think it refers to using what we know and strive to know to better things for everyone. Would a scientist contribute better to humanity by developing useless possessions for the rich or by finding ways to defeat the myriad of diseases that we face?
6. This is a purely religious statement. In most monotheistic religions, the sacred text used states that a follower must make certain sacrifices in his or her life. If one claims to worship, but does not make the changes in his or her life as demanded by the religion, does one worship?
7. Christ, just look at Cheney (or imagine the stereotypical “good ol’ boy” politician, bending the rules to favor themself and those they like) to see how this works. Politics shouldn’t be a business, it is for the betterment of the nation; we are far, far away from that, however.
Well, cool sounding words don’t make truth, even coming from Ghandi. “Science without Humanity.” What science is ever done without “Humanity?” Humanity is also multifaceted, complicated, and often not very nice. I would say better, “Science only by totally nice robots who like us.”
How about we separate the message from the messenger? If you do that, this is a arbitrary grouping of cool sounding phrases.
This conversation is classic. Gandhi, the personality/images his name invokes, gave a great many people hope in humanity. Gandhi, the person, was an ignorant, foolish, and in some ways perverted person.
Ex. 1: His wife died of pneumonia because he refused to allow doctors to give her a penicillin shot. This qualifies as ignorant, even in his time.
Ex. 2: He slept with two young (illegal young) naked girls every night because he thought it increased his power to be around things that would make him horny, but to not actual “spill his seed”, so to speak. Correct me if I’m wrong but I do believe that’s both foolish and perverted (plus it means he had a constant bad case of blue balls).
For more on the estranged beliefs of Gandhi, and as a bonus Mother Teresa, check out Penn and Teller’s BS episode covering the two of them.
To answer the question “What science is ever done without “Humanity?””
Tuskegee experiment
Nazi experimentation on Jews (although that was arguably less about science than it was about killing)
Testing dangerous products on animals (who says something has to be human to be treated humanely
Additionally, the reason for institutional review boards is to make sure that science is performed ethically with adequate protection for the subject (human or animal). Gandhi was only talking about the same thing that any scientist now would certainly swear by.
It’s interesting that the comments here have been made in haste, however the original wisdom was years in the making.
Rarely does the truth behind wisdom show itself in the first glance and casual thought. These are all wise, and their truth lies in deep contemplation, observation and time. Take the time to drink in the wisdom and it may appear to you…eventually if you are open to it. Our instant gratification world cannot intrude into personal development and growth. It has no power there.
Just as an aside, #3 Knowledge without character. we all know an example of this. Someone at work who thinks the sun shines out of their behind because of the extensive knowledge they have of their system. The person who thinks this makes them better than you. This one is arrogance to a tee.
But once again, I’m sure there is far more wisdom hidden by the need for contemplation of this statement.
Sage, Snakob and gentleman nosh are the only 3 intelligent and wise people on this post. The rest of you should at least try and gain some perspective from their words.
I’ve read these in the past as the “Seven Blunders” of the world, I think sins can be taken out of context.
I agree a lot with what sage was saying.
honestly, you have to look no further than the state of the world today to see that these are true -
1. It’s all about what you gain in the path to wealth, not about the end result. someone who has not worked for their wealth will always squander it with no appreciation for things what so ever.
2. Mindless pleasure will always be self destructive, its a path to addiction.
3. I perceive this as having information but not using common sense. Like the millions of people who are book smart and have a degree but can’t figure out the simple things in life.
4. One word - Corporations.
5. Science w/out an ethical and moral guideline will ruin us. Such as the making of the atom bomb, human genome, etc..etc..
6. Religion in itself is a sacrificial practice, when you invoke this you learn the true meaning of a higher state of mind.
Exactly the kind of systematization of guilt and shame that has caused most of the problems in the world. I couldn’t disagree more, as far as contents AS WELL AS the whole principle of universal rules go. Back to the drawing board on this one, I think.
I’m tired of hearing so-called realists from Western countries that have never had it so good swagger around dismissing sentiments that are good and honest and truthful as ‘naive idealism.’ At this point in time we have never beeen so well fed, well educated, and generally priviliged, partly due to the fact that our ancestors built democracies out of the ‘wimpy’ ideals credited to Gandhi here. This attitude, I think, is a very good example of ‘knowledge without character’, or arrogance, as interpreted by one of the other people posting here. Arrogance is nothing but folly, as is all sin, and I see it in people who like to ‘play tough’, because they have a vague idea that the world is messed up because of what they’ve seen in news reports, movies etc since they were kids, but who have no idea of the actual consequences of their actions. This bogus realism is in fact creating it’s own reality - a reality of ignorance and violence. One of the great tragedies of our time is to see leaders dismantle rights and protections that were built up painstakingly, by trial and error over many centuries in the name of ‘realism’. We have arrived at statements like Gandhi’s through the same experimental processes that science uses to test data and verify hypothesis, they are not just the work of a morning, not just cool sounding words, and not even Gandhi’s own original thoughts. Most decent people with a bit of wisdom and common sense have had these thoughts at some stage.
And as for the words themselves not being ‘discrete concepts’, I cannot believe that someone could look at a word, any word, and not see that it was a discrete concept in and of itself. ‘Humanity’, whether humans are really good, bad or indifferent, has a distinct resonance to English speakers. It means, as far as I can ascertain; that which it is bigger than oneself. In practice it means thinking of the consequences for the rest of humanity, and this is not to say that we only treat humans with humanity, but that we do not do anything to demean our own humanity as representatives of the human race, by destroying things just for the sake of power or knowledge. Who cares what kind of a person Gandhi was either. He’s long dead, and his legacy, thank god, is his idealism and his writings, not his sexual proclivities. If he was alive, it would be a different matter, but he’s not, and what we have left is his undeniable wisdom, and his belief that strength in human beings can be strong without being cruel or violent.
The simple fact people have critized with out taking the time to think and anazyle what he was speak about shows their state of mind and placement in the world… sad when your realize it.
Sorry, Matt (May 8), but whoever added the 8th sin (’Knowledge with out dicipline’ (sic)) “in the 60s” it wasn’t Ghandi - he was shot dead on 30 January 1948.
@ Adam and Ken Dhal
Some comments about Gandhi sleeping with women were made. I want them to know that Gandhi has very explicitly mentioned them in his own autobiography. He himself admitted that he was not perfect in these. He was not a sage when he was in his teens but turned out to be more than that when the society asked him later. It was then, that he started analysing his own life and laid some rules which parents may enforce for their kids not to turn out to be like him.
It is in good spirit if you argue clearly only on the points without talking about the author and since you have made your views, I am also forced to make mine.
It is also in very bad state that you cruse him and drag his name down when you know seem to nothing about him or what he has done and contributed. It is in the minds of all the Indians and several other people that he exists as a role model of perfection.
Sure is a lot to criticize here, if that’s what you want.
1st of all, sin is evil being done on purpose, where most evil done in this world is by accident. It is only after the discovery of potential evil in any activity that we are faced with the possibility of sin.
For example:
I doubt that someone born into wealth has any idea that it is a sin, at least not at first.
The only other scenario for wealth without work would be theft or plunder. Yet the thief is feeding his family and the plunderer is supporting his cause.
When a man buys his wife a pair of diamond earrings, is her pleasure a sin if she is unaware of the bloodshed those diamonds actually caused?
I doubt if there is such a thing as knowledge without character, unless you’re talking about pure thought, which is absolutely utilitary. Perhaps he meant that thoughts meaningfully put together = knowledge reflects the character of the architect.
I am uncomfortable with any morality associated with commerce. Commerce is nothing more than getting something for something (and hopefully a little more), where morality suggests giving for the sake of compassion. We all have to put up with the instabilities of commerce, or we “couldn’t survive.” It is a necessary evil in our world, which is more dangerous than mere sin; iniquity.
Science without morality is a redundancy of #3: knowledge without character.
Worship and sacrifice are both so vague, it’s impossible to interpret the intention of putting them together in a sentence. But to me, worship without sacrifice is hardly a sin. Worship is ultimate focus on That Which You Are Unifying With. I would be so happy to give my life for such bliss, that I could never image it to be any sacrifice whatsoever. True worship is without sacrifice.
Please don’t bother with politics. None of it is real. And yet we give politics such authority. Strange…
I think some people are taking “worship without sacrafice” too literally. I’m pretty sure he does mean stuff like “I sacrifice this animal to my god” Just that if you say you follow a religion it’s hypocritical unless you follow that religion’s restrictions.
and to Adam who said: “Fuck you, Ghandi.You never apologized for doing any of these things yourself.
You’d probably even admit to them if you weren’t already shot dead.”
To the best of my knowledge (and I admit I don’t know much about him) All he did was express his well respected opinion and protested peacefully against what he didn’t believe in. I’m sure you’d do the same kinds of things.
This kind of dialogue just can’t be bought. Mind you, the anger, criticism and dismissive words seem like reactions to me. I think that one of the reasons that Gandhi’s words still have the power to affect us so strongly is the truth sensed in them. He challenges us to change our lives, our minds and our world much as he did.
Someone once told me that the most interesting thing about Gandhi was what an uninteresting Indian he was. He then explained that unlike many people, Gandhi had tried to live up to the ideals of his country’s religion as well as he could.
He was a man of character where knowledge and understanding of injustice (British rule) had to lead to action. His conscience would not allow him to live the life of ease/pleasure his education and caste afforded him at the expense of his countryman’s welfare. His spiritual sense (sense of worship) caused him to sacrifice what most of us would consider a normal life in the pursuit of independence for India.
He lived his religion with very few compromises. Most of us compromise on our religious beliefs continuously in order to function in our society. It would be considered naive to do otherwise. Unfortunately this attitude is permitting commerce without morality to destroy our planet. This process is condoned by politicians lacking the principles to protect our future.
Gandhi’s life and words challenge us to consciously take ourselves and our world in a different and better direction. Pretty scary stuff :)
Mahatma Gandhi was a huge racist against blacks, and even against lower caste Indians. It is NOT ignorant to call him classist, it is factually correct.
He refused to allow his wife medicine when she was critically ill because ‘the body should be allowed to heal itself’, which resulted in her death. When Ghandi was ill himself not long after, he couldn’t have taken the medicine any faster.
Unfortunately its a fact of life that many heroes are themselves despicable people who, for whatever reason (usually political), have been elevated to the status of saints through the use of propaganda and fiction. Mahatma was definitely one of those people.
As for the quote, the reason people instantly connect with it is because it is stating the obvious. Arrogant ‘enlightened’ people love this kind of shit, plain facts wrapped up in metaphor and the promise of ‘deeper meaning and truth’. Stop contemplating the meaning of life and start looking for the truth of life, no gay little quote is going to change the world.
Wow. for such a little criptic post what a great example the greatness of the net. sure some peoples comments were not the most civil but there is still a conversation here. these posts are still trying to think about what these words mean and thats called thinking. I love it.
These quotes are pretty much common sense. Rag on Gandhi all you want, but this is the kind of wisdom my dad could’ve told me. In other words, it’s universal; just because Gandhi said it doesn’t mean it’s “his”. It’s everyone’s. These quotes are no less vaguely true than, say, “Murder without cause is bad.”
Well, no duh.
‘Worship without sacrifice’ means compromising your actions for what you (supposedly) believe in. There are plenty of people I know who believe in God, but only because it’s their status quo; they attend church out of routine, and not faith. When the going gets tough (when their beliefs are actually challenged), they lose faith. In other words, they’re posers who only like the idea of Heaven. Hypocrites, basically.
Chris, where on Earth did you get all that nonsense from?
Gandhi was a racist who hated blacks? You are aware that he spent 20 years in South Africa fighting for the rights of Indians, Blacks and Coloureds there, right?
He hated people of a lower caste? He spent his entire life crusading against the caste system. He gave them the name ‘Harijan’, meaning “Children of God”.
I’m not aware of him denying his wife medicinal treatment which he would take later on. I know that the previous two ‘facts’ that you presented are false, so this might also be a false legend.
I suggest that you study about him before making these outrageous claims.
The worse sin.. and possibly only true sin is something that causes another person harm. Even if your “so-called” is some form of neglect , such as drinking and/or using drugs so much you neglect your young children, or your excessive drinking influences them to start drinking at a very young age.. “excessive drinking is just an example” or if you do something directly to someone. This is the worst and again, possibly only true sin. Whether it be by intent -or- lack of intent to not do so. Thus it’s the same.
Gandhi is honored in India today as an important hero who helped liberate India from British rule. But otherwise, he’s neglected. Modern India is trying very hard to be materialistic, while Gandhi was anti-materialistic. Modern India has an active, powerful military. We all know Gandhi preached against military. History has moved on, Gandhi is an honored relic.
We all respect Mahatma Gandhi, but item # 6 is definitely creepy as.
“Worship without sacrifice” is a sin?
It begs the question who or what is being sacrificed and who is doing the sacrificing.
Just my 2 cents.
May 7th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Beautiful, poignant
May 8th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Why is worship without sacrifice a sin? I do not understand this one
May 8th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
8th sin that Gandhi added after the 60’s
Knowledge with out dicipline
May 8th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
So…if I try to pursue a life following all of those tenants I get what?
1. Poor and I work too hard for it.
2. Guilt for feeling joy.
3. I know little, but I know it well?
4. Poor because I give it all away.
5. Creationism with no testable facts.
6. Faith.
7. No politicians.
Ok, so 6 and 7 almost make it all worth it.
recap:
Poor, never truly happy, at best naive, no facts to rely on, have faith and no such thing as politicians. Dunno…sounds like a damn chimpanzee to me. :)
Look, Ghandi was a nice guy, no doubt about it. Was he wise enough to cheat death. I think not.
May 8th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Meh, who is he he to judge? Sounds like classist crap.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Define the contexts for the following words:
#3. “character”
#5. “humanity”
#6. Entire sentence.
#7. “Principle”
May 9th, 2008 at 12:54 am
Care to explain how conscience, character, morality, humanity, and principle are five discrete concepts?
May 9th, 2008 at 7:24 am
We are all animals.
Everybody is nuts.
Everybody lies.
Everybody has habits.
In my opinion this explains all human behavior.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:49 am
It is hard to argue with anything Ghandi said.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:51 am
8. President without a brain
May 9th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Gandhi knew the truth of the human heart and soul.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Here’s my interpretation of what is said here:
1. This does not say we should not have wealth, rather it says we should have worked for it. Applicable perhaps to (I hate to say this, but it’s a great example) to people like the Hilton daughters? They haven’t done anything, but live like queens.
2. Have pleasure, but understand how those pleasures may affect others. For example, it is one thing to drink alcohol, but it is entirely another to drive drunk and endanger others.
3. This is a hard one without knowing what Gandhi’s intention was. Apply what you have learned to better yourself, perhaps?
4. Be a fair merchant, if you are one. Don’t charge obscene prices for goods. Also, consider how these goods came into being; if they were made by workers in horrific conditions being paid almost nothing, one would be violating this.
5. I don’t think this is a creation/evolution statement. Rather, I think it refers to using what we know and strive to know to better things for everyone. Would a scientist contribute better to humanity by developing useless possessions for the rich or by finding ways to defeat the myriad of diseases that we face?
6. This is a purely religious statement. In most monotheistic religions, the sacred text used states that a follower must make certain sacrifices in his or her life. If one claims to worship, but does not make the changes in his or her life as demanded by the religion, does one worship?
7. Christ, just look at Cheney (or imagine the stereotypical “good ol’ boy” politician, bending the rules to favor themself and those they like) to see how this works. Politics shouldn’t be a business, it is for the betterment of the nation; we are far, far away from that, however.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Wow. I can’t believe some of the hogwash proposed and advocated by several of the comments.
This is about building character and, ultimately, integrity. These comments remind me of a passage in the Tao te Ching…
When the best students hear of the Way
They try zealously to put it into practice.
When average students hear of the Way
It’s sometimes here and sometimes gone.
When the worst students hear of the Way
They burst out laughing.
Not laughing would make it
Unworthy to be called the Way.
And that’s as it should be.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
see, it’s fine to disagree with Gandhi, but, Rich, calling him classist is just ignorant. do you know who Gandhi is?
May 9th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Well, cool sounding words don’t make truth, even coming from Ghandi. “Science without Humanity.” What science is ever done without “Humanity?” Humanity is also multifaceted, complicated, and often not very nice. I would say better, “Science only by totally nice robots who like us.”
How about we separate the message from the messenger? If you do that, this is a arbitrary grouping of cool sounding phrases.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
OOPS! Gandhi, rather.
May 10th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
This conversation is classic. Gandhi, the personality/images his name invokes, gave a great many people hope in humanity. Gandhi, the person, was an ignorant, foolish, and in some ways perverted person.
Ex. 1: His wife died of pneumonia because he refused to allow doctors to give her a penicillin shot. This qualifies as ignorant, even in his time.
Ex. 2: He slept with two young (illegal young) naked girls every night because he thought it increased his power to be around things that would make him horny, but to not actual “spill his seed”, so to speak. Correct me if I’m wrong but I do believe that’s both foolish and perverted (plus it means he had a constant bad case of blue balls).
For more on the estranged beliefs of Gandhi, and as a bonus Mother Teresa, check out Penn and Teller’s BS episode covering the two of them.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
To answer the question “What science is ever done without “Humanity?””
Tuskegee experiment
Nazi experimentation on Jews (although that was arguably less about science than it was about killing)
Testing dangerous products on animals (who says something has to be human to be treated humanely
Additionally, the reason for institutional review boards is to make sure that science is performed ethically with adequate protection for the subject (human or animal). Gandhi was only talking about the same thing that any scientist now would certainly swear by.
May 12th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
how about worship without rationale? i believe sacrificing is looked down upon in most place these days…
May 12th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Fuck you, Ghandi.You never apologized for doing any of these things yourself.
You’d probably even admit to them if you weren’t already shot dead.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
It’s interesting that the comments here have been made in haste, however the original wisdom was years in the making.
Rarely does the truth behind wisdom show itself in the first glance and casual thought. These are all wise, and their truth lies in deep contemplation, observation and time. Take the time to drink in the wisdom and it may appear to you…eventually if you are open to it. Our instant gratification world cannot intrude into personal development and growth. It has no power there.
Just as an aside, #3 Knowledge without character. we all know an example of this. Someone at work who thinks the sun shines out of their behind because of the extensive knowledge they have of their system. The person who thinks this makes them better than you. This one is arrogance to a tee.
But once again, I’m sure there is far more wisdom hidden by the need for contemplation of this statement.
May 13th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Sage, Snakob and gentleman nosh are the only 3 intelligent and wise people on this post. The rest of you should at least try and gain some perspective from their words.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
I’ve read these in the past as the “Seven Blunders” of the world, I think sins can be taken out of context.
I agree a lot with what sage was saying.
honestly, you have to look no further than the state of the world today to see that these are true -
1. It’s all about what you gain in the path to wealth, not about the end result. someone who has not worked for their wealth will always squander it with no appreciation for things what so ever.
2. Mindless pleasure will always be self destructive, its a path to addiction.
3. I perceive this as having information but not using common sense. Like the millions of people who are book smart and have a degree but can’t figure out the simple things in life.
4. One word - Corporations.
5. Science w/out an ethical and moral guideline will ruin us. Such as the making of the atom bomb, human genome, etc..etc..
6. Religion in itself is a sacrificial practice, when you invoke this you learn the true meaning of a higher state of mind.
7. Two words - Bush and Cheney
May 15th, 2008 at 1:00 am
Exactly the kind of systematization of guilt and shame that has caused most of the problems in the world. I couldn’t disagree more, as far as contents AS WELL AS the whole principle of universal rules go. Back to the drawing board on this one, I think.
May 15th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I’m tired of hearing so-called realists from Western countries that have never had it so good swagger around dismissing sentiments that are good and honest and truthful as ‘naive idealism.’ At this point in time we have never beeen so well fed, well educated, and generally priviliged, partly due to the fact that our ancestors built democracies out of the ‘wimpy’ ideals credited to Gandhi here. This attitude, I think, is a very good example of ‘knowledge without character’, or arrogance, as interpreted by one of the other people posting here. Arrogance is nothing but folly, as is all sin, and I see it in people who like to ‘play tough’, because they have a vague idea that the world is messed up because of what they’ve seen in news reports, movies etc since they were kids, but who have no idea of the actual consequences of their actions. This bogus realism is in fact creating it’s own reality - a reality of ignorance and violence. One of the great tragedies of our time is to see leaders dismantle rights and protections that were built up painstakingly, by trial and error over many centuries in the name of ‘realism’. We have arrived at statements like Gandhi’s through the same experimental processes that science uses to test data and verify hypothesis, they are not just the work of a morning, not just cool sounding words, and not even Gandhi’s own original thoughts. Most decent people with a bit of wisdom and common sense have had these thoughts at some stage.
And as for the words themselves not being ‘discrete concepts’, I cannot believe that someone could look at a word, any word, and not see that it was a discrete concept in and of itself. ‘Humanity’, whether humans are really good, bad or indifferent, has a distinct resonance to English speakers. It means, as far as I can ascertain; that which it is bigger than oneself. In practice it means thinking of the consequences for the rest of humanity, and this is not to say that we only treat humans with humanity, but that we do not do anything to demean our own humanity as representatives of the human race, by destroying things just for the sake of power or knowledge. Who cares what kind of a person Gandhi was either. He’s long dead, and his legacy, thank god, is his idealism and his writings, not his sexual proclivities. If he was alive, it would be a different matter, but he’s not, and what we have left is his undeniable wisdom, and his belief that strength in human beings can be strong without being cruel or violent.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
The simple fact people have critized with out taking the time to think and anazyle what he was speak about shows their state of mind and placement in the world… sad when your realize it.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Sorry, Matt (May 8), but whoever added the 8th sin (’Knowledge with out dicipline’ (sic)) “in the 60s” it wasn’t Ghandi - he was shot dead on 30 January 1948.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:17 am
Very concise and to the point. Our current leadership commit these sins daily.
May 17th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Joe,
Probably the stupidest comment I’ve ever read. No amount of wisdom can protect you from a BULLET TO THE HEAD!
May 18th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
@ Adam and Ken Dhal
Some comments about Gandhi sleeping with women were made. I want them to know that Gandhi has very explicitly mentioned them in his own autobiography. He himself admitted that he was not perfect in these. He was not a sage when he was in his teens but turned out to be more than that when the society asked him later. It was then, that he started analysing his own life and laid some rules which parents may enforce for their kids not to turn out to be like him.
It is in good spirit if you argue clearly only on the points without talking about the author and since you have made your views, I am also forced to make mine.
It is also in very bad state that you cruse him and drag his name down when you know seem to nothing about him or what he has done and contributed. It is in the minds of all the Indians and several other people that he exists as a role model of perfection.
May 18th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Well Said. I might be guilty of some :)
May 19th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Sure is a lot to criticize here, if that’s what you want.
1st of all, sin is evil being done on purpose, where most evil done in this world is by accident. It is only after the discovery of potential evil in any activity that we are faced with the possibility of sin.
For example:
I doubt that someone born into wealth has any idea that it is a sin, at least not at first.
The only other scenario for wealth without work would be theft or plunder. Yet the thief is feeding his family and the plunderer is supporting his cause.
When a man buys his wife a pair of diamond earrings, is her pleasure a sin if she is unaware of the bloodshed those diamonds actually caused?
I doubt if there is such a thing as knowledge without character, unless you’re talking about pure thought, which is absolutely utilitary. Perhaps he meant that thoughts meaningfully put together = knowledge reflects the character of the architect.
I am uncomfortable with any morality associated with commerce. Commerce is nothing more than getting something for something (and hopefully a little more), where morality suggests giving for the sake of compassion. We all have to put up with the instabilities of commerce, or we “couldn’t survive.” It is a necessary evil in our world, which is more dangerous than mere sin; iniquity.
Science without morality is a redundancy of #3: knowledge without character.
Worship and sacrifice are both so vague, it’s impossible to interpret the intention of putting them together in a sentence. But to me, worship without sacrifice is hardly a sin. Worship is ultimate focus on That Which You Are Unifying With. I would be so happy to give my life for such bliss, that I could never image it to be any sacrifice whatsoever. True worship is without sacrifice.
Please don’t bother with politics. None of it is real. And yet we give politics such authority. Strange…
May 20th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
I think some people are taking “worship without sacrafice” too literally. I’m pretty sure he does mean stuff like “I sacrifice this animal to my god” Just that if you say you follow a religion it’s hypocritical unless you follow that religion’s restrictions.
and to Adam who said: “Fuck you, Ghandi.You never apologized for doing any of these things yourself.
You’d probably even admit to them if you weren’t already shot dead.”
To the best of my knowledge (and I admit I don’t know much about him) All he did was express his well respected opinion and protested peacefully against what he didn’t believe in. I’m sure you’d do the same kinds of things.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
This kind of dialogue just can’t be bought. Mind you, the anger, criticism and dismissive words seem like reactions to me. I think that one of the reasons that Gandhi’s words still have the power to affect us so strongly is the truth sensed in them. He challenges us to change our lives, our minds and our world much as he did.
Someone once told me that the most interesting thing about Gandhi was what an uninteresting Indian he was. He then explained that unlike many people, Gandhi had tried to live up to the ideals of his country’s religion as well as he could.
He was a man of character where knowledge and understanding of injustice (British rule) had to lead to action. His conscience would not allow him to live the life of ease/pleasure his education and caste afforded him at the expense of his countryman’s welfare. His spiritual sense (sense of worship) caused him to sacrifice what most of us would consider a normal life in the pursuit of independence for India.
He lived his religion with very few compromises. Most of us compromise on our religious beliefs continuously in order to function in our society. It would be considered naive to do otherwise. Unfortunately this attitude is permitting commerce without morality to destroy our planet. This process is condoned by politicians lacking the principles to protect our future.
Gandhi’s life and words challenge us to consciously take ourselves and our world in a different and better direction. Pretty scary stuff :)
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:27 am
Mahatma Gandhi was a huge racist against blacks, and even against lower caste Indians. It is NOT ignorant to call him classist, it is factually correct.
He refused to allow his wife medicine when she was critically ill because ‘the body should be allowed to heal itself’, which resulted in her death. When Ghandi was ill himself not long after, he couldn’t have taken the medicine any faster.
Unfortunately its a fact of life that many heroes are themselves despicable people who, for whatever reason (usually political), have been elevated to the status of saints through the use of propaganda and fiction. Mahatma was definitely one of those people.
As for the quote, the reason people instantly connect with it is because it is stating the obvious. Arrogant ‘enlightened’ people love this kind of shit, plain facts wrapped up in metaphor and the promise of ‘deeper meaning and truth’. Stop contemplating the meaning of life and start looking for the truth of life, no gay little quote is going to change the world.
Done :D
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:55 am
Wow. for such a little criptic post what a great example the greatness of the net. sure some peoples comments were not the most civil but there is still a conversation here. these posts are still trying to think about what these words mean and thats called thinking. I love it.
May 23rd, 2008 at 2:39 pm
These quotes are pretty much common sense. Rag on Gandhi all you want, but this is the kind of wisdom my dad could’ve told me. In other words, it’s universal; just because Gandhi said it doesn’t mean it’s “his”. It’s everyone’s. These quotes are no less vaguely true than, say, “Murder without cause is bad.”
Well, no duh.
‘Worship without sacrifice’ means compromising your actions for what you (supposedly) believe in. There are plenty of people I know who believe in God, but only because it’s their status quo; they attend church out of routine, and not faith. When the going gets tough (when their beliefs are actually challenged), they lose faith. In other words, they’re posers who only like the idea of Heaven. Hypocrites, basically.
May 24th, 2008 at 4:27 am
@Diana - Short and nice said
May 24th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Thomas the Rhymer: I believe Spock of Star Trek said ” Knowledge without discipline ( is unforgivable ) “…Lol.
Ghandi also had the rather nasty habit of drinking some of his own urine. Maybe that is why he was so pissed off at the English….
May 27th, 2008 at 12:06 am
To #35:
Chris, where on Earth did you get all that nonsense from?
Gandhi was a racist who hated blacks? You are aware that he spent 20 years in South Africa fighting for the rights of Indians, Blacks and Coloureds there, right?
He hated people of a lower caste? He spent his entire life crusading against the caste system. He gave them the name ‘Harijan’, meaning “Children of God”.
I’m not aware of him denying his wife medicinal treatment which he would take later on. I know that the previous two ‘facts’ that you presented are false, so this might also be a false legend.
I suggest that you study about him before making these outrageous claims.
June 3rd, 2008 at 4:24 am
“Wealth without work”
UK footballers get £millions for just kicking a ball. its stupid
June 3rd, 2008 at 7:00 pm
The worse sin.. and possibly only true sin is something that causes another person harm. Even if your “so-called” is some form of neglect , such as drinking and/or using drugs so much you neglect your young children, or your excessive drinking influences them to start drinking at a very young age.. “excessive drinking is just an example” or if you do something directly to someone. This is the worst and again, possibly only true sin. Whether it be by intent -or- lack of intent to not do so. Thus it’s the same.
June 4th, 2008 at 9:57 am
That’s all they are.
Language is a barrier as much as a bridge. Interpretations lead to conflict as much as resolution.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Gandhi is honored in India today as an important hero who helped liberate India from British rule. But otherwise, he’s neglected. Modern India is trying very hard to be materialistic, while Gandhi was anti-materialistic. Modern India has an active, powerful military. We all know Gandhi preached against military. History has moved on, Gandhi is an honored relic.
July 1st, 2008 at 1:57 am
We all respect Mahatma Gandhi, but item # 6 is definitely creepy as.
“Worship without sacrifice” is a sin?
It begs the question who or what is being sacrificed and who is doing the sacrificing.
Just my 2 cents.